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Chris Biow    0

The conversion rate has not budged from 50K:1 over the last 24 hours, so whatever route I'm invoking has either fixed it or created a large wall. My only trusted gateway is Bitstamp, but I can't figure out how to show their XRP:BTC rate.

 

https://github.com/rippleFoundation/ripple-client/issues has the bugs I've seen and much, much more, so I'll wait until Joe's people get a bit more caught up.

 

Bottom line, we do have BTC transfers working with negligible fee, which is what I was looking for.

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There is no "fixed" conversion rate, that was likely a market price. You find the market in Advanced/Trade.

 

I'm still confused about why did Ripple automatically converted XRPs into BTCs, I thought it would only autoconvert real currencies, not XRPs themselves.

Guess either I was wrong, or you did trust someone for XRPs.

That's correct. Ripple has built in markets that are used for specific conversions but also to facilitate payments.

 

The intention is to, where possible, allow you to make a payment in any currency using any asset you hold. Currently there are a few cases where this doesn't happen, in particular, you cannot automatically convert some other currency to make a payment in XRP. However, when you make a payment with a destination currency other than XRP, you are offered to use whatever you hold to do it, including XRP where possible.

 

Ripple does pathfinding, including using multiple exchanges or issuer changes to find cheap paths. A payment transaction can include multiple paths and the payment will take incrementally from those paths at whichever provides the best rate for that increment at the instant the transaction is applied.

 

(You can't trust someone for XRPs. And it didn't auto-convert. He specifically asked to pay for the transaction using XRP and it was able to find a path, using one or more exchanges, to make the payment work.)

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Still trying to learn what Ripple is capable of. I have ripple if anyone is still wanting to experiment with it.

 

I see this as a powerful tool if it really takes off. Correct me if I'm wrong, but would this not facilitate a future automated system that could be implemented as a POS. For example. Someone pays with bitcoin, it converts to USD instantly. I'm sure this will take a lot of development and significant user activity, but this is what I see when I use Ripple.

Another example I think of would be instant liquidity balancing between different Bitcoin exchanges and services. The system could be automated between three exchanges to allow an automated balance of market liquidity.

 

I'm not a developer, but I see this becoming a useful tool if the majority the of inner functioning of Ripple was invisible to the average user. Correct me if I'm wrong but is this not the direction they are wanting to go? I'm still confused on what it is exactly. I'm getting an idea of how this could be used, but standardizing Bitcoin is our ultimate goal, ripple will need to be standardized as well. Bitcoin could strengthen in tandem if these the two are implemented in this way.

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Brian Goss    554

Still trying to learn what Ripple is capable of. I have ripple if anyone is still wanting to experiment with it.

 

I see this as a powerful tool if it really takes off. Correct me if I'm wrong, but would this not facilitate a future automated system that could be implemented as a POS. For example. Someone pays with bitcoin, it converts to USD instantly. I'm sure this will take a lot of development and significant user activity, but this is what I see when I use Ripple.

Another example I think of would be instant liquidity balancing between different Bitcoin exchanges and services. The system could be automated between three exchanges to allow an automated balance of market liquidity.

 

I'm not a developer, but I see this becoming a useful tool if the majority the of inner functioning of Ripple was invisible to the average user. Correct me if I'm wrong but is this not the direction they are wanting to go? I'm still confused on what it is exactly. I'm getting an idea of how this could be used, but standardizing Bitcoin is our ultimate goal, ripple will need to be standardized as well. Bitcoin could strengthen in tandem if these the two are implemented in this way.

Ripple+Facebook+Bitcoin = big

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bo shen    3

I got some ripples on hand, please post your ripple address on the forum if any one want Ripples to test the system !

 

Cheers.

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Brian Goss    554

Yeah, finally went ahead and signed up for this after watching it for a little while. My address is rB4zJjccQoTwWKciXPDetGzUrWK4o7nfuP in case someone wants to give me some so I can play around. The p2p trust thing seems like basically a technical implementation of hawala but with the possibility for much longer chains, which I am skeptical of for reasons I'll get to. The gateways version seems like it will be equivalent in value to the trustability of the gateways. The consensus model probably needs strictly less trust than the networks themselves so it seems like a reasonable way to go for a method that requires a nontrivial amount of trust anyways--performance characteristics look decent.

 

Here's a scenario that concerns me, however: Person A trusts B who trusts C who trusts D and so on up to Z. A sends Z an IOU for $100. A week later, Z needs the hundred dollars and goes to Y saying "cash now pls." Y says, "sure no prob, let me just grab it from X". The next day Y goes to X and says "hey can I grab that hundy?" and X says, "definitely, I'll just get in touch with W".

 

Eventually, 25 days after Z needed the money, B is telling A "yo, I just need to grab that hundred bucks from you" and A says "well this is awkward b/c I'm actually broke right now...you know I'm good for it right?". tl;dr B through Y are being made to have socially awkward conversations because of what A and Z did. And here's the root problem--although I would definitely trust most of my friends and family to owe me money, I don't actually want them to. It's awkward and takes up my time and mostly in real life I would just give them the money rather than have them owe it to me. I don't want the probability of my having to deal with the whole money thing to go up radically just because I'm socially well-connected. And when I do choose to ignore a loan to a friend, I want it to be because they actually got the money rather than because someone else did.

 

So, like in hawala, people will really only use this system through a few major players (the "gateways"). Who will generally be for-profit businesses and thus need to pay for their time. Meaning the entire Ripple thing might end up just being the equivalent of internal accounting in Paypal or Western Union--cheap and as trustworthy as the business, but provided to outsiders at a price tag.

 

One area I could see this being valuable is b2b (business to business) where you have businesses who are normally trading transactions all the time anyways and now need to "settle up" a lot less often, lowering their costs. Like I could see all the Bitcoin exchanges becoming hubs and then allowing for much easier movement of liquidity between them (both fiat and btc). But I'm not sure there would be a substantial reduction of costs to their customers, as transaction costs are presumably not a large portion of their overall budgets. It also seems like Ripple provides the infrastructure for any entity to easily issue a virtual currency without worrying about the implementation, which could be interesting.

 

Anyways that's what I've got so far. I'll be watching with interest.

 

I granted you trust for some pocket change. I have few connections, so I'm trying to branch out :)

 

[email protected]

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bo shen    3

please may i also have some ripples to play with? rBiagLVDyaMyqyzaBV6K1zPX9M8n3kZEXE

 

Sent.

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bo shen    3

My faith in Ripple has just dropped when this issue got closed without any answer...

 

I'll withdraw my assets from there and, other than keep running the XGG gateway, I'll back away from it.

 

Understand your feeling and your decision! I might do the same natural action. :)

Opencoin's people are too busy to answer your concern these days, I think, and two main executives left comments for you.

They put their names on the company, I truly believe they will do it.

TRUST CREATES VALUE. They do need people's trusts on all aspects, will do right things.

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Kyle Jerviss    35

In various places, they have claimed that it will be incredibly difficult to change the system once released, and that is the reason they haven't released it yet. I'm inclined to give Joel the benefit of the doubt that that is the reason, and that their concern is legitimate. But that doesn't seem like a positive trait to have.

 

Once released, many eyeballs will uncover many flaws, and it will really suck for them if they can't fix them easily. Sadly, there is no way to get that level of code and design review without releasing it.

 

It doesn't help that OpenCoin's business model has a (probably) fatal flaw. Once the code is released, a dozen clones will pop up out of spite, and opencoin will not hold XRPs in any of them. One of them may even have a somewhat fair-ish system that allocates XRPs for participation.

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In various places, they have claimed that it will be incredibly difficult to change the system once released, and that is the reason they haven't released it yet. I'm inclined to give Joel the benefit of the doubt that that is the reason, and that their concern is legitimate. But that doesn't seem like a positive trait to have.

 

Once released, many eyeballs will uncover many flaws, and it will really suck for them if they can't fix them easily. Sadly, there is no way to get that level of code and design review without releasing it.

 

It doesn't help that OpenCoin's business model has a (probably) fatal flaw. Once the code is released, a dozen clones will pop up out of spite, and opencoin will not hold XRPs in any of them. One of them may even have a somewhat fair-ish system that allocates XRPs for participation.

I doubt clones will ever be a problem, just look at the bitcoin clones who were rightly ignored: unless you have something to add, people will know you are worthless.

 

But the rest of the post is really quite right and I agree.

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Bitcoin was presented to the community as a done deal, take it or leave it. If there had been huge problems with, say, the block reward schedule, there would probably have been no way to fix it. We're very lucky that there were no such fundamental problems with Bitcoin. I don't know if that was really luck or genius on the part of the designers, but none of the Ripple developers have that kind of confidence.

 

True security flaws or actual brokenness should be fixable in Ripple, just as it was in Bitcoin. But design changes and new features may or may not be. It's hard to know. For example, here was an extended discussion that led to an agreement to make significant behavior changes in Ripple. The change was controversial, and there's no way to know whether it would have happened if it required a community consensus: https://github.com/rippleFoundation/ripple-client/issues/748

 

I would consider it a personal failure if the source code wasn't opened by the end of the year. But we're still processing community input on major design aspects of the system.

 

For example, another issue we're working on now is the way transactions are chained. Each transaction has a sequence number that is compared to an account sequence number to prevent a transaction from being applied twice. This created an interesting problem for systems that create large numbers of transactions automatically. Say they create transactions 6 through 10 but say transaction 7 fails for some fundamental reason that prevents it from applying at all. When they create a new transaction 7, their old transactions 8 through 10 become legal and anyone who had a copy of them could apply them. This issue would likely not have been discovered without the system getting real use. And because of the control we still have, we can make sure it gets fixed.

 

We are pretty good about making the source available to people who want to study it or develop services that use it. Getting rid of the drag on adoption that the server source being closed has created is a very high priority for us.

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Joel Dalais    306
none of the server code is currently open

 

That and the fact they've given out a sizable quantity to their staff and company on the outset.

 

And the other stuff that Greg (Maxwell) said.

 

It just rings alarm bells for me also..

 

Hope it gets all worked out though.

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For example, another issue we're working on now is the way transactions are chained. Each transaction has a sequence number that is compared to an account sequence number to prevent a transaction from being applied twice. This created an interesting problem for systems that create large numbers of transactions automatically. Say they create transactions 6 through 10 but say transaction 7 fails for some fundamental reason that prevents it from applying at all. When they create a new transaction 7, their old transactions 8 through 10 become legal and anyone who had a copy of them could apply them. This issue would likely not have been discovered without the system getting real use. And because of the control we still have, we can make sure it gets fixed.

This is the corner stone of every payment system!

 

XRPs must be generated by their issuer (Open Coin) as transaction numbers (unique serial number for every XRP). They must have all the characteristics of a bond - issue date, serial number, expiry date, date of redemption etc.

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True security flaws or actual brokenness should be fixable in Ripple, just as it was in Bitcoin. But design changes and new features may or may not be. It's hard to know.

 

This I don't understand.

Why are you afraid servers won't apply patches?

 

Same here.

If you are not ready to make the project open sourced and allow others to contribute at least make it public, so that people can audit the code.

 

Even if someone would try to exploit any early bugs it is not like Ripple is very popular yet, no real harm would be done. It is still a very niche solution.

Kindly please, publish the code.

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Ripple can help in the faster adoption of Bitcoin, but I doubt this is their aim. The first target at Bitcointalk shows that they are looking for converts to exchange Bitcoins for XRPs. But it is still closed beta. I have tried it with a lot of problems. So at least for now, Bitcoin still stands far ahead of XRP.

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