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Dan Plante

Active Individual Membership involvement has dropped to 1.5%

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Dan Plante    147

As of a few days ago, Industry Membership totaled 80, and Individual Membership totaled 1,327.

 

From what I have seen over the last several months (not scientifically rigorous to be sure), less than 20 Individual members out of that 1,327 have continued to engage here over 6 moths or so. That is about 1.5%. I've actually never seen this kind of thing before in organizations where peeps have both a monetary and emotional/philosophical stake in it. Quite weird, and quite amazing to my eyes.

 

Have they thrown up their arms in disgust and disengaged, resolving to change the status quo without permission or warning like Satoshi did (or maybe just say f*ck it and get drunk)? Did they fall in love with a triumphant chick and just forgot everything else (I'm ok with that, I'd do the same ;) ? Did the NSA warn them off with incriminating photos from their laptop?

 

Remember, Bitcoin was designed to be decentralized for a very good reason. It has to do with human nature, and how people naturally gravitate towards hierarchies of power and decision making, for various reasons. But that never works out in the long run. Let me be clear: most Industrial Members are not evil or damaged people (Mark might be an exception), they're just frantically focused on their personal goals and so they can't hear you, and when you object to that they get angry and frustrated, and then they don't even want to hear you.

 

That said, 15% should set off alarm bells. 1.5% is far beyond my experience. That is not an organizational disease, that is rigor mortis.

 

Maybe it's time to cast a vote from all members. Send out emails about the vote because most of them probably don't read this site anymore. Set up a poll. Ask all the members if the Foundation should be restructured, and how. Change the bylaws, or maybe just move on? I'm ok with either, but this current construct seems irretrievably broken, ethically.

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Todd Erickson    212

Dan - I do agree that the number of active users does seem quite low, but this forum was never really designed to be bitcointalk.org.

 

It has been my experience that most of the people here that are "lifetime" members did so in part because they wanted to support legitimate efforts to expand the reaches of Bitcoin and not necessarily because they wanted to actively participate in a forum.

 

For instance, I actively support Cato.org but almost never post there. I value the work they do and the intellectual property that they disseminate but I dont feel the need to actively engage in their social media channel. This may be the case here as well.

 

And yes, I realize that I am one of the 20 that you mentioned (and you are too. *grin*)

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Brian Goss    554

Dan,

 

I like the analysis. Can you compare what % has ever engaged to what % has engaged in last 6 months?

 

It feels like there are many who have never posted here, but I don't view that as a bad thing. People engage differently. I happen to post here. Others on bitcointalk or the higher SNR forum cryptocrypt. Some tweet. To each his own.

 

The change over time with attention to the "never engaged" fraction would also be enlightening, IMHO.

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Mike Hayes    172

The analysis as presented is flawed.

 

It is not possible to compare 'active membership' between a free forum where registration is all that is required to post, and a paid forum.

 

Secondly, you may expect postings to drop by orders of magnitude when you require posters to list actual physical names and addresses. (From the "Join" section: For current membership pricing options, please create an account. To promote transparency and enforce fair voting procedures, we require a real name and address for all members. Please note that member dues paid to records that do not include a real name and mailable address will not be refunded.)

 

And there are very good reasons for the way that drops participation in a post-Snowden world. The management decision to "open up the board" was an act of plain stupidity. Other options were available (eg, open part of the board, close another part for members only, etc).

 

So you have decisions made, and the results of them. Live with it. Embrace the results of the decisions made in the organization you are in. Decisions made for the greater good by the select few.

 

Or, possibly, try to get blunders, errors, oversights and outright offensive policy and pricing corrected, and in so doing and by the response from management received, assess whether the far greater and silent majority of the membership is correct, or partially correct in their silence and complicity.

 

By the way, I am not trying to be a gadfly here but just to answer the OP accurately. I read it as asking "Why is participation low". I believe my answer is correct.

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Mike Hayes    172

SOLUTION:

 

For starters, let's look at a comparable - ACM.

 

http://www.acm.org/m...ip/student/dues

 

Regular dues $99, student dues $19. The Bitcoin Foundation? You fill in the blank for its rates. Particularly for the discount it has for students. Oh? None? Oh.

 

And - very importantly - this. Special rates for developing country prospective members. The Bitcoin Foundation's rate for those from developing countries? You fill in the blanks.

 

http://www.acm.org/m...ip/student/l2-3

 

Next, let's look at the cost to attend the ACM Southeast USA conference ("late fee" because this conference is just a few days off, normal rates would be even less):

 

ACM Member Late Fee $250,

ACM Non-Member Late Fee $280,

Student Late Fee $75,

 

 

REQUEST

 

I'd like to see the forthcoming candidates for open board positions give their opinions on material aspects of the organization such as the comparables above listed for results-oriented production, instead of producing mindless political rhetoric.

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Brad Wheeler    296

A 1.5% member checking in:

 

I guess I'm somewhere in between Dan and Todd. These forums are a hub for a few who are engaged.

We really have a lack of data here as to why the forums aren't utilized. Some members never post, while other members exit. Is this a problem in and of itself?

 

- Why do people join this organization?

- Who is interested in discussion forums?

- Who wants to volunteer?

- Has something gone wrong to discourage participation? If so, what?

- Have members joined for different reasons in the past compared to now?

 

Unless appropriate member data is being recorded systematically, there will only be anecdotal evidence to answer these questions. Member relations is vital for a two-way organization. My personal opinion is that the leadership should think about this and integrate it. Does anybody else like this line of thinking?

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Marco Santori    138

Dan, your title is misleading, and I don't think it is fair to the many people that are hard at work on committees.

 

You say that "active individual membership" has "dropped", yet all you refer to is the quantity of posts on a small web forum? Please, at minimum. change the title. Your post is important and informative, but the title is just click bait, and it's FUD.

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David R Allen    318

....

- Has something gone wrong to discourage participation? If so, what?

- Have members joined for different reasons in the past compared to now?

 

 

Nothing has gone wrong, its just the bus has changed direction.

 

Executive Director,Jon Matonis said it eloquently in his Let's Talk Bitcoin Interview last year.

The Bitcoin Foundation had a decision to make before its final registration with the (US) authorities.

 

It could remain a Non-Profit Organization, which I think is the common perception, OR ...

it could become a Trade and Industry organization, which it has become, although perhaps not officially, yet.

 

That significant change has come about as a result of the Coinlab/Mt.Gox court case, Charlie's high-profile arrest by the (US) authorities, Mt.Gox's bankruptcy and the current election for the two Trade/Industry seats.

 

The people that I know that have joined recently believe this IS the Bitcoin Trade Association, not a membership driven, grassroots, decentralized, Satoshi inspired not-for-profit.

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Marco Santori    138

I think you raise a good point. Your title is misleading, though, and I don't think it is fair to the many people that are hard at work on committees.

 

You say that "active individual membership" has "dropped", yet all you refer to is the quantity of posts on a small web forum? Please, at minimum. change the title. Your post is important and informative, but the title is just click bait, and it's FUD.

 

Are you involved in a committee? If not, would you like to be?

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David R Allen    318

Dan, your title is misleading, and I don't think it is fair to the many people that are hard at work on committees.

 

You say that "active individual membership" has "dropped", yet all you refer to is the quantity of posts on a small web forum? Please, at minimum. change the title. Your post is important and informative, but the title is just click bait, and it's FUD.

 

Actually I was thinking about this as well. Dan does a great devil's advocate, but sometimes misses the mark in search of response.

( I think the title should stay but a new thread created that addresses the contributions actually being made)

 

Many of the active people have participated on the committees with much more intensity and purpose than when they were simply posting, or commenting.

The other aspect of this to consider is, this is not a social club. We may have many things in common, but there are probably more differences as our only direct tie is our preferred currency.

 

If I wanted "friends" I would go to a bar, join a club, make Facebook home or tweet my brains out.

I came here to learn, contribute and question the status quo (on so many levels).

It works for me, and I am honoured to be one of the 1.5%

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Mike Hayes    172

Nothing has gone wrong, its just the bus has changed direction.....

 

..significant change has come about as a result of the Coinlab/Mt.Gox court case, Charlie's high-profile arrest by the (US) authorities, Mt.Gox's bankruptcy and the current election for the two Trade/Industry seats.

 

The people that I know that have joined recently believe this IS the Bitcoin Trade Association, not a membership driven, grassroots, decentralized, Satoshi inspired not-for-profit.

Important point, actually.

 

Let me illustrate. I'm naming names for a reason (NOT positively or negatively), since everything is public now.

 

A. "google Mark Santori". Result, many references to work Mark is doing on bitcoinfoundation committees.

 

-----> GOOD for Mark.

 

B. "google Dave Allen". Result, a different Dave Allen comes up prominently. Phrasing of the name could be changed to influence google search results. Example, Dav3 Allen. There are other ways, adding middle initial does not work.

 

C. Prominent government/bank/NSA employee interested in helping this organization outside his job in his spare time. Well he's quit posting and has likely decided to discontinue membership.

 

D....

 

And so forth. Point is simply that....

 

MARKET EFFECT: Positive advertising medium for lawyers, accountants, others. They benefit professionally from public release to search engines of Bitcoinfoundation information. To others, effect ranges from negative or highly negative.

 

Viewed in this light, and judging only by material effects of this recent change, it does start to feel more like a "trade association".

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You're all wrong! ;-)

Actually low participation in forums as opposed to lurkers is not that unusual.

Personally I participate a tad less because I don't like the fact that these forums are "public". I have a big mouth and am happy to speak

in public when I want to, however if I have an opinion on some Bitcoin Foundation topic, then the audience is only the BF. Unless I private message individuals I can no longer post without assuming it's spread beyond the BF, and that annoys me.

 

I also think that many people in the forum are rather ahem...confrontational. I don't feel that this forum is a particularly welcoming place. This is a bit simplified of course, some people are very "friendly". I'm not saying that confrontation is bad either, but I would bet it does turn off lots of people (this is just pure speculation and I have no hard data).

 

In David's post earlier he states that he's not here to make friends and while I agree this is not a social club, it IS a type of community. We all for various reasons are into Bitcoin. For some it's almost a religion, for others not so much, but we all have a fascination with the potential of Bitcoin. That fascination does bring us together as a community, social or not we do have that in common.

 

Last but not least I also think that lots of people here need to just lighten up! No matter how you feel about Bitcoin, whether you think it's going to save the world or just make you some money, there is no reason to take yourself(s) so seriously. There is no reason we all can have fun and get serious work accomplished while maintaining a sense of humor, after all it's just Bitcoin!

 

Carry on...

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I read the forum quite sporadically. Though, in my experience I always felt out of place here. I'm not sure what to say, who to talk to, don't get a response or a general robotic tone when I do get a response. Like a library or corporate office. I do understand how serious bitcoin has become. Though, we are all still human and we require fun, excitement, and engagement. It doesn't feel like a community here, it feels like a insider club. When I post here I feel like the long haired hippie walking into the elks lodge and the music stops playing and everyone stares at me until I leave.

 

With the exception of Dan and Todd. I haven't really received any engagement from anyone. That may be due to the general inactivity of most members. Though, I feel like this place needs a good lesson from some, engaging, fun co working spaces. Something needs to change, just not sure what exactly.

 

Are the goals to generate income for the foundation? Engage the public? Promote? Protect? If so, I do believe something is amiss.

 

I have perused and investigated every community in the bitcoin eco system and this place always feels strange. I get the same response from other people as well. Take for instance what Lets Talk Bitcoin is doing, or the Emunie forum, or even the trading sites like MCXNow. It's fun, there are events, some sites feature gameification, some people are even hired specifically to engage the public and draw interest and excitement.

 

Even if some of the sites on the internet are a bit shady or strange they all have one thing in common that draws a crowd and revenue, a welcoming community (sometimes incentive driven), shout boxes, engagement, events, gameification, Above all else, fun and engaging content (two key components to innovation). This site has the Library vibe. While it may be important to keep a lot of the younger immature crowds out, it also is important for people to feel comfortable and interested. It feels like a formal dinner here. Professional and mature is one thing, but dull and drab is another.

 

I also think it feels taboo to talk about anything other than bitcoin. While this is the "Bitcoin Foundation" It also is a spearhead for a world changing and innovative technology. The stratification between the Alt coin communities and and the Bitcoin Foundation in my opinion is strangling an extremely valuable component to innovation and progress. I see some amazingly innovative and hard working alt coin communities and projects developing and I don't understand why it isn't a prerogative of the foundation to reach out and integrate the crypo currency communities as one.

 

Every community out there doing decentralized projects should be working together for a common goal and sharing resources. Some projects like Ripple, Maidsafe, Emunie, Cryptr, Ethereum, Lets Talk Bitcoin's LTBcoin, and many of the other altcoin projects are one in the same in my eyes. We are all fighting to change the world for the better and approaching it in the same manner. After all, the Altcoin communities are better at promoting, marketing, fund raising, developing, collaborating, communicating, engaging, etc. Not to mention the alt coins are a laboratory for innovation and experimentation, not a competing corporation that needs to be eliminated.

 

I think an organization promoting the first successful decentralized global currency that's causing a paradigm shift in the way we think about money and business, needs to have a paradigm shift in the way we approach organizational models as well as business and social engagement.

This is a social currency that is distributed. The Foundation should take some lessons from bitcoin's ideals (what we are trying to protect promote and standardize.)

 

I'm not going to pretend that bitcoin is the end all be all. It may fail at any moment and some other project may rise up. Why not rise up together and ensure the preservation of the Ideas and moral standing that Satoshi originally proposed. The ideals and ethics should be the heart of our promotion, protection and standardization.

 

I'm fully aware that Corporate coin is fast on the horizon, though it feels like bitcoin is just being thrown down the legislative pits, so corpcoin can rise to the top.

With all the currency related patent filings by some of the worlds most powerful corporations taking place; I feel like everyone is just waiting for Imoney to come out so we can forget about bitcoin and buy Imoney and start the centralized money game all over, but without banks backing and printing money.

 

We should make a solid effort to incorporate all the great projects and combine resources to ensure corporate centralization isn't a reality. I mean I would probably use Googcoin or IMoney happily as an alternative to Fedcoin. But lets be honest is that what were trying to achieve here? The laws will be in place very soon to allow a corporate take over of the traditional banking industry. It should be up to the worlds people to decide if that's what we want. I can guarantee a currency backed by Apple or Google assets will destroy bitcoin in a heartbeat. They wont necessarily destroy Bitcoin the network, but it will destroy bitcoin the currency. And I think the world needs to get a taste of what is possible before that happens. Corporate assets spendable like bitcoin are coming fast. corporations want the customers that the perpetual financial crisis has been hindering and they will step up to the plate soon.

 

Google, IBM, Apple and Microsoft assets spendable like bitcoin are almost inevitable. But I think a lot of people in the world will be left out as it will be another hierarchy system of oppression, stratification, and segregation. The trend will continue unless people lighten up and open their minds to the possibilities and opportunities.

 

And Sandy, you commented while I was writing my novel here. My response,... yes, it is very confrontational, condescending, and unwelcoming at times. People do need to lighten up and that is most likely a huge reason for the mass exodus, among other reasons.

I personally have a long fuse and my feelings have not been hurt, but it definitely doesn't help the image, and certainly does drive people away. Especially after paying for membership just to be met with a wall of interpersonal blockage...

 

Was that all too harsh? If it was I'm sorry, but it is frustrating after paying for a membership just be an unpleasant disappointment for most people. The free market is doing its natural selection here and if something isn't done soon, the network effect will shift resources away to more productive and progressive projects.

 

I personally am an entertainer (musician) and think we should host concerts, meetups, educational events, networking opportunities, resource portals, as well as some possible payed individuals to engage the public on the forum and in the real world. "PR PR PR" should be the new "Location Location Location" for the internet. Just some thoughts here.

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Heck Reddit is even implementing tip bots and that is really driving some attention. That alone would get some more traffic and engagement. Combined with gameification and a little less corporate stiffs with a condescending tone would probably open things up quite a bit. Though people have a negative view so it will take some good marketing to get people interested. Possibly even distributing a foundation currency specifically for tipping and forum related uses would be great. If you haven't seen LTBcoin's new project. I think Adam is really starting a great new method of engaging the public that all forums should adopt. If you haven't seen it yet, you should attend the hangout tomorrow.

 

https://plus.google.com/u/0/events/c4b0fa1gj8t16h6im019gf3po38

http://ltbcoin.com/

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David R Allen    318

 

Was that all too harsh? If it was I'm sorry, but it is frustrating after paying for a membership just be an unpleasant disappointment for most people. The free market is doing its natural selection here and if something isn't done soon, the network effect will shift resources away to more productive and progressive projects.

 

I personally am an entertainer (musician) and think we should host concerts, meetups, educational events, networking opportunities, resource portals, as well as some possible payed individuals to engage the public on the forum and in the real world. "PR PR PR" should be the new "Location Location Location" for the internet. Just some thoughts here.

 

Brady, that was not harsh at all!

 

It's time for FUNdation!

 

90% of your comments are right on the Bitcoin.

The part I disagree with is there are 100s of members of the foundation who now watch what the foundation does, and do not comment or participate.

They just watch. That is a clear option in the freedom created by the internet, but we can get them engaged.

 

So let's try an experiment. mBTC My treat.

 

Imagine if we could engage 10% of the world's population to use and enjoy the benefits of Bitcoin.

What is 10% of 7 Billion? (trick question)

 

Send me a Personal Mail by clicking on the envelope in the top right corner of this page and type David Allen as the recipient. Send me your answer. First correct answer wins!

 

Now the interesting thing about this is ONLY members of the foundation can win.

Individual, Silver, Gold and Platinum may play. That includes Staff, ONLY if they are members.

 

Fun heh!

 

Thanks for the encouragement, Brady. ;)

 

Those that want to contribute to the FUNdation fund, send me a separate email to [email protected]

 

P.S. The next FUNdation contest will be to make book on how many people will run for the 2 Industry Seats. Keep in mind they have till March 31st to be nominated, or nominate themselves.

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Mike Hayes    172

Brady, that was not harsh at all!

 

It's time for FUNdation!

 

90% of your comments are right on the Bitcoin.

The part I disagree with is there are 100s of members of the foundation who now watch what the foundation does, and do not comment or participate.

They just watch. That is a clear option in the freedom created by the internet, but we can get them engaged.

 

So let's try an experiment. mBTC My treat.

 

Imagine if we could engage 10% of the world's population to use and enjoy the benefits of Bitcoin.

What is 10% of 7 Billion? (trick question)

 

Send me a Personal Mail by clicking on the envelope in the top right corner of this page and type David Allen as the recipient. Send me your answer. First correct answer wins!

 

Now the interesting thing about this is ONLY members of the foundation can win.

Individual, Silver, Gold and Platinum may play. That includes Staff, ONLY if they are members.

 

Fun heh!

 

Thanks for the encouragement, Brady. ;)

 

Those that want to contribute to the FUNdation fund, send me a separate email to [email protected]

 

P.S. The next FUNdation contest will be to make book on how many people will run for the 2 Industry Seats. Keep in mind they have till March 31st to be nominated, or nominate themselves.

You mean....like......we get to be part of the FUNpercent?

 

Ya, Brady is spot on. My look at the causatives was more technical rant.

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David R Allen    318

Yes. sir! Step right up. You are on you way to the riches of engagement with the FUNpercent! Only at the Bitcoin Foundation!

 

The first prize as been prepared in your own personal coinpunk.com (funded by the Bitcoin Foundation) wallet to the tune of 7mBTC.

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Dan Plante    147

Brady, I agree with David et al. That is probably the best rant, that isn't a rant, that I've read before. It is heart and soul and intellect at once, and it is potentially

embarassingly honest and therefore courageous. And it is actually correct. That is the only sh*t that I ever listen to.

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Dan Plante    147

Dan - I do agree that the number of active users does seem quite low, but this forum was never really designed to be bitcointalk.org.

 

It has been my experience that most of the people here that are "lifetime" members did so in part because they wanted to support legitimate efforts to expand the reaches of Bitcoin and not necessarily because they wanted to actively participate in a forum.

 

For instance, I actively support Cato.org but almost never post there. I value the work they do and the intellectual property that they disseminate but I dont feel the need to actively engage in their social media channel. This may be the case here as well.

 

And yes, I realize that I am one of the 20 that you mentioned (and you are too. *grin*)

 

 

I agree Todd, and that was my primary motivation to join as a lifetime member.

 

Mike Hayes addressed your other point about the substantial difference between bitcointalk and the Foundation blog rather decisively so I won't belabour that point.

 

As to the gist of your response, I suspect padding of a large portion of the individual member electorate from way back. This is old school realpolitik to be sure. I understood that before I joined, not that it matters all that much. The bylaws make the normal individual members mostly irrelevant both by legal framework and by how realpolitik can warp that even further with plausible deniability of intent.

 

You come across to me as a decent person. Some people aren't. Most decent people seem to have a major blindspot regarding indecent people. I suspect these decent people are projecting their sense of decency onto sociopaths. They simply can't imagine someone that empty and twisted. That is where they screw up. The sociopaths understand this - it is the most important thing in their toolbox.

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Dan Plante    147

A 1.5% member checking in:

 

I guess I'm somewhere in between Dan and Todd. These forums are a hub for a few who are engaged.

We really have a lack of data here as to why the forums aren't utilized. Some members never post, while other members exit. Is this a problem in and of itself?

 

- Why do people join this organization?

- Who is interested in discussion forums?

- Who wants to volunteer?

- Has something gone wrong to discourage participation? If so, what?

- Have members joined for different reasons in the past compared to now?

 

Unless appropriate member data is being recorded systematically, there will only be anecdotal evidence to answer these questions. Member relations is vital for a two-way organization. My personal opinion is that the leadership should think about this and integrate it. Does anybody else like this line of thinking?

 

Good questions Brad, thanks. And yes, I pulled the numbers out of my ass - ie, it was anecdotal as well.

 

I suggested a poll of individual members (and advance email notification thereof) that includes hard questions about the Foundation that might elicit real answers. That point seems to have been burried in the chatter.

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Dan Plante    147

Nothing has gone wrong, its just the bus has changed direction.

 

Executive Director,Jon Matonis said it eloquently in his Let's Talk Bitcoin Interview last year.

The Bitcoin Foundation had a decision to make before its final registration with the (US) authorities.

 

It could remain a Non-Profit Organization, which I think is the common perception, OR ...

it could become a Trade and Industry organization, which it has become, although perhaps not officially, yet.

 

That significant change has come about as a result of the Coinlab/Mt.Gox court case, Charlie's high-profile arrest by the (US) authorities, Mt.Gox's bankruptcy and the current election for the two Trade/Industry seats.

 

The people that I know that have joined recently believe this IS the Bitcoin Trade Association, not a membership driven, grassroots, decentralized, Satoshi inspired not-for-profit.

 

 

Bingo. Thanks Dave, I thought I had read everything from Jon going back 15 years or so. I guess I'm not as thorough as I like to think.

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Dan Plante    147
Your post is important and informative, but the title is just click bait, and it's FUD.

 

Correct on both counts. I apologize for the amateurish manipulation. But it worked.

 

Marco, wake up. There are two board seats coming up to be voted on, but I am barred from voting for them. Yet they are directed by statutorily derived bylaws to represent my individual interests?

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Joel Dalais    306

Correct on both counts. I apologize for the amateurish manipulation. But it worked.

 

Marco, wake up. There are two board seats coming up to be voted on, but I am barred from voting for them. Yet they are directed by statutorily derived bylaws to represent my individual interests?

 

Calling for additional Bylaw amendment after the upcoming elections. That future Industry Board members should also be subservient to Individual members with regards to service, votes and attaining Board seats.

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Mike Hayes    172

A 1.5% member checking in:

 

I guess I'm somewhere in between Dan and Todd. These forums are a hub for a few who are engaged......

This is the kind of assertion that takes the problem, and redefines it as the solution. Well, that makes the job of a moderator pretty easy...

 

:)

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